Response to Comment
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YH's comment:
Just to warn you, what I'm about to say may sound like blasphemy.
What if you are beting on the wrong god? Then your 'crime' would turn from mere unbeliever to a much worse heretic. You may get punished much more severly by the right god.
And if god is omnisciences, then won't god see through your bet hedging, instead of true belief? Won't god punish you more heavily for lying instead of mere skeptism.
But I have nothing against religion. I think Jesus, the Reformation and the Age of Englightenment have tamed Christianity and made it better. I have issues with others though.
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Firstly, it's not blasphemy at all.
Questions are good, in spite of the headaches they generate. :) and i hope to invite more of them. I will not know all the answers, but i want to know what i don't know and find out.
So here's what i think (which i dare not say it's guaranteed biblical since i'm still new and i have lots of things i don't know yet, but these are the concepts i have now):
1) Betting on/Believing in the wrong God, and condemning myself further since I take pple away from the "real" God.
I dare not say that other Gods are not real, but i do know my God is real.
and that's the key.
Believing in any other God is a bet you need to take, believing in Christ is not a bet.
C.S Lewis says, "You can accept what Christ has done without knowing what He did for us, but you cannot know what He did without first accepting Him."
"Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know" (Jermiah 33:3)
Ask Him, listen, and find out why we know He is real. :)
In any case, not believing in any God at all is not the solution. It's a bit like buying shares versus keeping money in a biscuit tin. In buying reasonable shares, you have a high chance of profit and an outside chance of loss. In the biscuit tin, you sure lose against inflation.
In not believing in anything at all, at best, there is no God at all and nothing happens. At worst, one of the Gods is right and bad things happen.
In believing at least something, at best you're right. At worst, it's the "wrong" God and bad things still happen and you get one extra slap on the butt for lack of wisdom (because you have evangelised out of the purest intentions for helping others, you cannot be judged for being evil and harming others intentionally.)
but anyway if i may re-iterate the key point again,
I do not know if other Gods are real. that's a study and bet you need to take.
I do know Christ is real, from what i've seen, felt, and heard.
And i invite you to see Him and judge for yourself.
2) And if god is omnisciences, then won't god see through your bet hedging, instead of true belief? Won't god punish you more heavily for lying instead of mere skeptism.
You are absolutely right.
It was getting a bit too clinical and pragmatic for my liking.
The whole point of raising the best case worst case thing is to convince our minds in the beginning that this is the path we want to walk.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30)
Heart, mind, soul and strength.
the heart and the mind is a constant struggle and i find that it's hard to keep both in the same rate of progress.
when you experience God your heart will be softened, but your mind very often throws tantrums ("Noah's Ark?? riggghht....)
And sometimes your mind can get comfortable with a theory but to accept it in your heart till it's in your bones is difficult.
So faith is not easy.
"just believe can already" is a gross flippant understatement.
As a pre-believer, there is no experience and no "heart" to speak of.
So work on the mind, and see that it's worth a shot.
And after giving it the first shot, with the blessings of God, the heart soul and strength thing will come in and act as anchors.
But you need the first shot to enter the cycle of conviction.
Even as a new believer, whenever my mind throws tantrums ("Rise from the dead? rigggghttt"),
amongst other things, i go back to this secular thinking and remind myself even in the logical, "lay my bets" sense, this is not a bad thing.
But obviously after you get touched by God, you're not supposed to remain a "hedger".
A christian by name only is hardly a true Child of God.
And yes, God knows it. ;P
--------------------------------------------------------
Wow thanks for your questions man.
like wasabi to a blocked nose, it really cleared up my thinking. :)
"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have entertained angels without knowing it" Hebrews (13:2)
that is not to say you're a stranger. :P
This is one of the hardest post i've ever had to write.
After 1 night of writing and re-writing, 2 days of deflated thinking and 2 back-to-back shepherding sessions, this is what i have at the moment.
I don't usually post responses to comments as a blog post. But this one is pretty good. Hope you don't mind YH.
--------------------------
YH's comment:
Just to warn you, what I'm about to say may sound like blasphemy.
What if you are beting on the wrong god? Then your 'crime' would turn from mere unbeliever to a much worse heretic. You may get punished much more severly by the right god.
And if god is omnisciences, then won't god see through your bet hedging, instead of true belief? Won't god punish you more heavily for lying instead of mere skeptism.
But I have nothing against religion. I think Jesus, the Reformation and the Age of Englightenment have tamed Christianity and made it better. I have issues with others though.
--------------------------
Firstly, it's not blasphemy at all.
Questions are good, in spite of the headaches they generate. :) and i hope to invite more of them. I will not know all the answers, but i want to know what i don't know and find out.
So here's what i think (which i dare not say it's guaranteed biblical since i'm still new and i have lots of things i don't know yet, but these are the concepts i have now):
1) Betting on/Believing in the wrong God, and condemning myself further since I take pple away from the "real" God.
I dare not say that other Gods are not real, but i do know my God is real.
and that's the key.
Believing in any other God is a bet you need to take, believing in Christ is not a bet.
C.S Lewis says, "You can accept what Christ has done without knowing what He did for us, but you cannot know what He did without first accepting Him."
"Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know" (Jermiah 33:3)
Ask Him, listen, and find out why we know He is real. :)
In any case, not believing in any God at all is not the solution. It's a bit like buying shares versus keeping money in a biscuit tin. In buying reasonable shares, you have a high chance of profit and an outside chance of loss. In the biscuit tin, you sure lose against inflation.
In not believing in anything at all, at best, there is no God at all and nothing happens. At worst, one of the Gods is right and bad things happen.
In believing at least something, at best you're right. At worst, it's the "wrong" God and bad things still happen and you get one extra slap on the butt for lack of wisdom (because you have evangelised out of the purest intentions for helping others, you cannot be judged for being evil and harming others intentionally.)
but anyway if i may re-iterate the key point again,
I do not know if other Gods are real. that's a study and bet you need to take.
I do know Christ is real, from what i've seen, felt, and heard.
And i invite you to see Him and judge for yourself.
2) And if god is omnisciences, then won't god see through your bet hedging, instead of true belief? Won't god punish you more heavily for lying instead of mere skeptism.
You are absolutely right.
It was getting a bit too clinical and pragmatic for my liking.
The whole point of raising the best case worst case thing is to convince our minds in the beginning that this is the path we want to walk.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30)
Heart, mind, soul and strength.
the heart and the mind is a constant struggle and i find that it's hard to keep both in the same rate of progress.
when you experience God your heart will be softened, but your mind very often throws tantrums ("Noah's Ark?? riggghht....)
And sometimes your mind can get comfortable with a theory but to accept it in your heart till it's in your bones is difficult.
So faith is not easy.
"just believe can already" is a gross flippant understatement.
As a pre-believer, there is no experience and no "heart" to speak of.
So work on the mind, and see that it's worth a shot.
And after giving it the first shot, with the blessings of God, the heart soul and strength thing will come in and act as anchors.
But you need the first shot to enter the cycle of conviction.
Even as a new believer, whenever my mind throws tantrums ("Rise from the dead? rigggghttt"),
amongst other things, i go back to this secular thinking and remind myself even in the logical, "lay my bets" sense, this is not a bad thing.
But obviously after you get touched by God, you're not supposed to remain a "hedger".
A christian by name only is hardly a true Child of God.
And yes, God knows it. ;P
--------------------------------------------------------
Wow thanks for your questions man.
like wasabi to a blocked nose, it really cleared up my thinking. :)
"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have entertained angels without knowing it" Hebrews (13:2)
that is not to say you're a stranger. :P
7 Comments:
At 10:54 AM,
Anonymous said…
All I'm saying is if you believe, then the Pascal's Wager won't matter, if you don't believe then the Pascal's Wager won't help you.
And regarding Noah's Ark. The bible is not meant to be used as a science textbook on history, geography, geology, physics, biology and etc.
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” -Galileo Galilei
At 11:28 PM,
Anonymous said…
Just one more thing to stress your mind with if you are interested.
The main thing that prevents me from accepting Christianity or Buddhism is not the existence of god or jesus or buddha. I can accept them, or try to accept them if I believe what they teaches are beneficial to our mental health. But I don't think they are good for your mental health, and can generate pessimism, low self esteem and stress.
Christianity teach people to think lowly of themselves, as miserable and guilty sinners, who have to submit themselves before a angry and jealous god. Suffering is a test from god, a result of the sins of us and our ancestors. Life itself is a poor thing, just a interval to prepare themselves for the enternal afterlife, or for the second coming.
Buddhism teaches this life is illusion and sadness which can bring only suffering. A person is resigned to suffering as a punishment for their transgressions in previous lives. All of life's daily attachments and relationships caused suffering and sorrow, therefore tying man to an eternal existence on earth. Life is a bitter thing meant to be transcended or escaped from.
This is just how I see things from the facts, which I may be wrong or falsely interpreted.
At 12:10 AM,
Anonymous said…
yo yo!
wah, you have a very interesting view of both religions! :)
On the contrary i came to religions because i believed in them lie the answers to peace and happiness.
Let me give you the "glass-is-half-full" version.
You're right about Buddhism teaching that life is an illusion. But the point is not to get depressed over that fact, but to sense liberation from knowing this truth.
From the laws of karma and cyclical patterns, Buddhists see through tough times with "knowledge" that good times will come after the bad because everything is cyclical.
it's like the village has no electricity and while your neighbour curses in the dark at night and gets distressed, you wait patiently for morning to come, knowing that distress changes nothing and the sun will come in a few hours.
To say the teaching tells you there will be no light for 12 hours is only seeing half of it, it goes on to say wait, because the sun will come. So wait in peace.
And there is also the law of karma that encourages you to go out and do good things, because the law ensures good blessings will come your way.
-----------------------
Christianity is a different feeling. While Buddha was a teacher who saw and taught the law, he never ventured into how the law came about.
Christianity tells us that God was the creator of all things. And again you're right about the sinner's part, but again you've stopped at mid-point.
For though we have all sinned, God loves us and is trying all ways to bring us back to Him, with blessings along the way.
God tells us He made us all for a reason, there is a grand plan, but because we can think, sometimes we choose things that over-writes His plans. Follow Him so we can fulfil what we were made for.
So chrisitianity is actually very empowering. God is on our side to fight against Satan. "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?" (Heb 13:6)
Suffering is not so much a test as it is a character strengthening exercise. Christians ask themselves what God is telling us and what we're supposed to learn from this when we meet problems.
See God as a personal friend and guide. Sin has split us apart but He's not angry at us.
I see us as fishes in an aquarium. All we see is inside our little fish bowl. God is outside the fish bowl taking care of us.
Accepting that the fish bowl world is an illusion and that there's a God beyond the bowl gives me a sense of liberation, peace, and purpose.
---------------------------
I'm not sure if this little discussion thread has made things any clearer for you, but it certainly has for my own thoughts. :) keke. so thanks!
And it's a very strange thing this is. :)
I never thought i would become a christian.
but it's a bit like those 3D pictures. We stare and stare and somehow just can't see the picture pop out. And then one fine moment suddenly the 3D picture pops out.
And you can't stop seeing the 3D picture anymore. It just keeps popping out.
And you wonder why you could never see it before. :)
-juggleress
At 5:41 PM,
Anonymous said…
I beleive that a positive approach to life is always more rewarding and motivating than a negative outlook. I will share my belief to be fair to you, so you need not be on the defensive. I have done readings on many religions before settling on, part Taoism and part Deism.
Taoism see life as fundamentally good in its natural state. Lao Tzu state that, the earth was run by the same laws as heaven, not by the laws of men. The more man interfered with the natural balance produced and governed by the universal laws, the further away the harmony retreated into the distance. The more forcing, the more unnatural. Everything and everyone had its own nature already within it, which could not be violated without causing suffering. When abstract and arbitrary rules were imposed from the outside, struggle was inevitable. Only then did life become sour.
The deist god is a engineer who set up the laws and constants to govern the universe. God never intervens afterwards, and is not concerned with human affairs, reading our thoughts, our prayers, our sins or performing miracles. God greatest gift to humans is the ability to reason and want humans to be moral, and that reason will lead us to religious and moral truths. Deism rejects all revealed religion, since you are not putting your faith in the word of god but in the person, books or institution telling us it is so.
To quote David Hume,
Which is more likely -- that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by God to do so?
At 1:49 AM,
Anonymous said…
hmm, we all have our own sets of beliefs i guess. :)
i've met some serious buddhists and christians and they're one of the most peaceful, purposeful and kindest pple i've seen, so both religions are not as depressing as they seem to sound. :)
One thing i've discovered about christianity though. it is impossible to know without taking the first step. things from the outside look very different from the inside.
Once God speaks to you, it is very difficult to believe there isn't a God. And even if the one who spoke is my own thoughts, then it is a very profound and spiritual inner voice "me" that i've never gotten in touch with until i stepped in.
:)
juggleress
At 9:44 AM,
Anonymous said…
Ya, some of the buddhists and christians I know are very compassionate and helpful. I wish I could believe it myself, but I can't bring myself to just believe.
At 2:36 AM,
Anonymous said…
"It's a bit like buying shares versus keeping money in a biscuit tin. In buying reasonable shares, you have a high chance of profit and an outside chance of loss. In the biscuit tin, you sure lose against inflation."
Just to change the subject, maybe putting your money into biscuit tin wasn't such a bad idea after all. Been watching the whole DBS highnote saga.
Better the evil you know than the evil you don't.
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